(Washington Post, December 11, 2010 5:52 PM)
Rcofield, I see that you have affirmed, (12/11/2010 1:36 PM), that in your opinion, the majority of the current population of the earth, FOUR BILLION non-christians, and the ONE BILLION members of the Catholic denomination, who have not accepted the Master Jesus Christ as their Savior (in a manner you believe scripture requires), for a total of FIVE BILLION PEOPLE, at the close of this life, must be assigned to the eternal hellfires of damnation. I see the scriptural references which you have provided, which you believe require this result.
This is what I thought you believed, and you affirmed it, and with clarity.
For the moment, I would like to set aside the question as to whether it is your personal interpretation which requires the damnation of these FIVE BILLION SOULS, or the “crystal clear” words of the Master Jesus Christ which requires the damnation of FIVE BILLION SOULS.
I would like for you to consider a broader question.
One must wonder why God our Father and Mother would keep making people, by the hundreds of millions, decade by decade, whom They know will simply have to be thrown into the trash after a period of 60 or 70 years?
I am assuming that you agree with me, that God is all knowing.
God is well aware, for example, that the majority of children born into the Hindu religion in India will be taught to revere the Hindu religion from birth. The people of India are very proud of their Hindu traditions, most wear it as a badge of honor, and this will be transferred to their children. Given the Biblical maxim, which reads, raise up a child in the way he should go, and he will not depart therefrom, even God himself will conclude that there is really no hope for any substantial number of these souls to be converted to Christianity.
Moreover, we can further understand their horror, when they listen to you preach the words of the Master Jesus Christ, and hear this idea that all of their cherished Hindu ancestors for the last 2,000 years, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of people, have been thrown into the hellfire of eternal damnation by a Christian God. Even Mahatma Gandhi by your estimation. This will tend to dampen their conversion enthusiasm considerably I think. Perhaps one person in a million Hindus might be inspired to jump into the lap of the Christian God, but not many more.
Therefore, understanding fully all of these factors, that there is very little possibility or hope that any number of these souls will convert to Christianity, God our Father and Mother, still insist, year upon year, on creating millions, and millions, and millions, of Hindu children, who will grow up Hindu, live Hindu, and die Hindu, yes, God will continue to invest great rivers of life into these children, knowing that they will never be able to convert to Christianity in a given lifetime, and at the end, he will have to consign the great majority of them to eternal damnation (if your interpretation of scripture is correct).
I am assuming that you agree with me, that God is wise. For what purpose, then, is God creating all of this Hindu life, not simply to destroy it, but to consign this creation to no less than ETERNAL DAMNATION, which denotes a condition of eternal suffering as I understand it?
Given that there appears to be NO HOPE at all that any substantial number of the people of the earth, will be in a position to convert to Christianity, from another tradition, why does God keep creating hundreds of millions of these people, that he knows before hand, that he will have to assign to eternal damnation (if your interpretation of scripture is correct)?
RcoField, you did not respond to these important questions at the time (December 2010) so I am placing them before you again, asking you to search your heart for an explanation that you can share with us.
GOLDENEAGLES,
ReplyDeletePerhaps these are questions better asked of God Himself--if one were to be so presumptuous.
This I can say with certainty grounded in the very Word of God:
Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Hence we carry the Gospel to the nations--with urgency.
Rcofield says, “Hence we carry the Gospel to the nations--with urgency.”
ReplyDeleteThe "gospel" such as it is, was carried to India during the whole of the British colonial period. Yet, this did not change, to any significant degree, the religious orientation of the Indian culture, which remains largely Hindu.
Even so, with the "gospel" such as it is, having been preached, and the people of India, unable to appreciate it, God still continues to bring hundreds of millions of souls into embodiment within the Indian culture, who will be raised Hindu, and who will die Hindu, and who will be condemned to eternal damnation according to your reading of the Bible.
How can you explain, that a God of LOVE, and Compassion, and Mercy, and Forgiveness, will send souls into a Hindu culture, which He knows they will not be able to escape, and after they are finished with their Hindu life, summarily condemn them all to eternal damnation?
RcoField, as a self-professed Baptist Minister, please explain to us why God our Father would completely abandon his character of love, compassion, mercy, and forgiveness, in a fanatical dash into the domain of cruelty and injustice, to fulfill your interpretation of scripture, which you believe requires the eternal damnation of these souls?
What possible difference could there be between this situation, and a family on earth, who would happily raise a large family of children, providing them with everything they need over a period of 18 years, and then, when their 18 birthday arrives, having lived there lives in obedience subserviance to the family culture they were given, have them all thrown into prison, and who will then feel happy and content forever, at the ongoing slavery and suffering of their own progeny?
I would also like to see PeterHuff, and MrMeaner address this question.
Certainly, I can't be the only person on earth who sees a major contradiction here, between what the Bible tells us is the character of God, that of Love, Compassion, Mercy, Forgiveness, and this behavior of Rcofield’s God who is acting in a way that is obviously UNJUST, in condemning hundreds of millions of souls to eternal damnation.
It is UNJUST, because God knows before hand, before he sends these souls into embodiment, that because of the pressures of the society into which they are sent, that these people will have literally no hope at all of coming to any sense of appreciation for the Teachings of Jesus Christ.
It is very much like God setting up an obstacle course, that the people must either complete, or suffer the consequences of eternal damnation if they don’t complete it, and God, being in total control of who enters the race, and in a blatant act of cruelty, will send hundreds of millions of people into the obstacle course who have no legs! And yes, at the end of the race, God looks down, and sees that the people with no legs have only crawled a few feet, miles short of the goal line, and thus, he scoops them all up, and throws them into the fires of eternal damnation.
How can any healthy mind be comfortable with such an outcome? It’s like there’s a not-so hidden agenda operating here, that has RcoField pushing an ideology that causes people to hate and mistrust God, instead of learning to love God.
It is impossible to Love a God who will send hundreds of millions of legless people into a race that they have no hope of completing, and then condemning them all to eternal damnation for not completing the race.
MrMeaner, will you please give us the benefit of your thoughts on this issue?
ReplyDeletePeterhuff, will you please give us the benefit of your thoughts on this issue?
ReplyDelete[spelling correction - What possible difference could there be between this situation, and a family on earth, who would happily raise a large family of children, providing them with everything they need over a period of 18 years, and enjoying all the beautiful associations that are part and parcel of family life over those years, and then, when their 18 birthday arrives, having lived their lives in obedient subserviance to the family culture they were given, have them all thrown into prison, and moreover, attach each one to a rack of suffering, and who will then feel happy and content, at the ongoing slavery and suffering of their own progeny forever after?]
ReplyDeleteGood questions, GE
ReplyDeleteI'll take a shot at offering an opinion tomorrow night, or this weekend sometime.
Mr. Everest - The Highest
ReplyDeleteMountain in the World
MrMeaner, I look forward to your thoughts on this subject.
In the mean time, let us consider this truth that God created the heavens and the earth, and he made it so, that the single highest mountain in the whole world, Mr. Everest, is located in the area of the earth populated by the adherents of Buddhism primarily. Isn’t that interesting?
But of course, this is also true, that all of the first efforts to climb to the summit of that highest mountain, from 1921 to 1953, hailed from long established Christian civilizations, primarily the British in the first phase of this important climbing history. The first successful summit, in 1953, was made by a British team (which included a Buddhist Sherpa).
And that points to a very important fact. A fact that has proven true to this very day. Christians cannot climb that mountain without the help of the Buddhist population. They require large teams of Buddhist Sherpas to haul their equipment up to the various base camps, and to serve as guides, which brings forward the metaphor of someone standing on another’s shoulders to reach something that would otherwise be completely and totally out of reach for them.
Isn't there a divine language inherent in the manner in which God created the world and all the people therein? What is God our Father trying to tell us here?
Now, according to RcoField’s interpretation of scripture, all of these Buddhist Sherpas, who made it possible for Christians to reach the summit of the highest mountain on earth, will be cast into the hellfires of eternal damnation by the One Almighty (Christian) God, for the simple reason that they did not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
As children these Sherpas were raised Buddhist, taught to revere Buddhism, and they stayed Buddhist to the very end of their days. Because they correctly and obediently adhered to the traditions of their people and culture, they will be cast into the hellfires of eternal damnation. And all the Christian climbers who could never have made it to the summit (without the help of these Buddhists) they will all live happily ever after in the lap of the Lord Jesus Christ.
And so I say to you, that there MUST be something wrong with an interpretational methodology of Holy Scripture, which, when applied to real life situations, will make a God of Love, appear to be a God of cruelty, ingratitude, and injustice.
Indeed, it would be mete, that the conscience of those who profess to be Christians should be painfully pricked by the sharpest thorn of shame, when they find themselves being the instrument, through their interpretation of scripture, by which the very character of God they profess to love, is maligned in the eyes of the whole world.
I ask you, how it is possible to be obedient the Commandment to Love God with our Whole Heart. Mind and Soul, and to participate, at the very same time, in the maligning of God’s character before the eyes of men?
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ReplyDeletePeterhuff, I appreciate your response, but I will wait for MrMeaner's ideas on this subject before I respond in detail.
ReplyDeleteThe best way I can answer is to again remind people that the only part of the law that has ended, is the need for sacrificial ordinances.
ReplyDeleteThe law is needed for those who don't understand the difference between right and wrong, by nature.
Those who do, by nature, understand what is, and isn't acceptable...even without a written reference, are counted as righteous in God's eyes.
Romans CH.2
[12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
[14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
[15] Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
[16] In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
[17] Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
[18] And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
[19] And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
[20] An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
[21] Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
[22] Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
[23] Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
[24] For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
[25] For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
[26] Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
[27] And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn the ungodliness away fromn Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."
ReplyDeleteRomans 11:26-27
Just thought I'd throw that in, there
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Rcofield says, “Perhaps these are questions better asked of God Himself--if one were to be so presumptuous.”
Your statement here, Rcofield, helps us to pinpoint a place in your belief structure, that contains doubt and disbelief, where there should be absolute faith.
It is impossible to say this, “Perhaps these are questions better asked of God Himself--if one were to be so presumptuous.” if one truly believes this:
John 14:26 - “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
This will help you understand what I am getting at when I say that the belief structure that the Christian community entertains has something missing, that keeps them from being able to fulfill the promise of the Master in John 14:12.
John 14:12 - ”Verily Verily I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do, shall he do also, and greater works than these shall he do, because I go unto my Father.”
You are giving us an example, in this statement, “Perhaps these are questions better asked of God Himself--if one were to be so presumptuous.” of an incomplete belief structure. Where there is doubt in the veracity of the Word of God, one must work with the Master Jesus to fill that shadowy space with the light of faith and truth.
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Enter Ye in At the Straight Gate - Part 1
RcoField quotes Matthew 7:13-14 - “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”
Here the Master Jesus is giving us evidence that he KNOWS that there will be many who will not find the way. This validates my observation above, that God knows that there will conditions and situations that will keep people from finding the truth, that will keep people from resonating to that truth.
Indeed, this is not the only place where the Master indicates this pre-knowledge, that there will be people who will not find the way. The parable of the sower is another case in point.
Mark 4
1 And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole multitude was by the sea on the land.
2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,
3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.
9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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Enter Ye in At the Straight Gate - Part 2
Mark 4 (continued)
10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
Clearly, this shows a pre-knowledge of the very conditions that will cause many people to turn away from the truth, and walk in the ways of destruction.
Knowing this beforehand, why is God making the effort at all in trying to convert them? Why especially if he knows he will have to throw them all into the pit of eternal damnation according to your (Rcofield) interpretation of scripture? It makes absolutely no sense.
The only way you can make sense out of this, is that the repeated efforts of God will at some point in the distant future, finally accumulate within the psychology of the soul, to provide the rich ground where the seed will finally be able to take root.
The very strata layers of the earth testify to this principle.
It is like a bell with its clapper fused to one of the inside surfaces. During one life, the truth will hit the person over the head with a hammer, but the bell will not ring. But the clapper is loosened a bit. During the next life, the truth will hit the person over the head with a hammer again, but still, the bell will not ring. But the clapper is loosened a bit more. During the next life, the truth will hit the person over the head with a hammer again, but still, the bell will not ring. But the clapper is loosened a bit more. And this goes on, lifetime after lifetime, until the clapper is finally broken free, and the bell will ring, and then soul will swoon, finally, in the resonance of the truth.
This goes in the direction of affirming a system of multiple life opportunity, where God our Father will go back, again and again, making every effort to get through to the child he LOVES so much.
That is why, of course, that there is no such thing as “eternal damnation” UNTIL the event of the End Times. Until the day of the End Times arrives, the people will be given multiple life opportunities to come into alignment with the true teachings of the Lord Christ.
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Rcofield says, ”Hence we carry the Gospel to the nations--with urgency.”
I wanted to revisit this statement one more time with my trusty hammer.
Reasoning that the five billion non-believers on earth are headed for eternal damnation, you say, ”Hence we carry the Gospel to the nations--with urgency.” Yet you say this at the very same time that you devote your life to stripping out of the teachings of Jesus Christ, the one promise, if fulfilled, that would really cause these people to stand up and pay attention. Yes, John 14:12. If this promise were fulfilled in the Christian community, I dare say there would be a mighty exodus from the ranks of Hinduism, and Buddhism, and Islam, into the Christian community.
John 14:12 - ”Verily Verily I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do, shall he do also, and greater works than these shall he do, because I go unto my Father.”
Actually, the “gospel” stripped of the common sense meaning of John 14:12, is no gospel at all. And this being the case, we can see why it is impossible to conclude that the End Times are near in any respect, as there is no true gospel, as such being preached in any of the nations.
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PeterHuff says, “ ... how could God still be God and compromise His goodness? What would heaven be like if everyone wanted to serve self and to do their own thing?”
God cannot compromise his goodness. That is why Jesus Christ admonished, “Be ye therefore perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect.”
And so, I agree with you that God can only allow perfect people into heaven. I agree with you, that he will stand at the door and make sure that imperfect people do not enter. This is in fact an act of love on his part, in relationship to the people who are already in heaven, and who are already living the heavenly life, where love rules all things, and they don’t need, nor do they want the kinds of conflict that (imperfect) people would bring in, if they were allowed to bring in their angers and hatreds, jealousies and resentments, fears and doubts, their heavy metal, and rap music, and so forth.
And so, what of the billions of people who have not made themselves perfect, and fit, to enter the Kingdom? Does God love them the less for their imperfections? No.
His love is expressed to them in the form of mercy and forgiveness. He will give them many opportunities to come into alignment with heavenly standards. He will give them many life opportunities to shed the old man of selfishness, and to put on the new man of divine love, with its inherent character of obedience unto the laws of God, using the Master Jesus Christ as the pattern to follow in that respect.
As noted elsewhere, when the people can fulfill the promise that Jesus Christ has made in John 14:12, only then will they be SURE that they are ready to enter into heaven, and will be accepted therein with open arms.
John 14:12 - ”Verily Verily I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do, shall he do also, and greater works than these shall he do, because I go unto my Father.”
Everyone else will have to take another lap. And become the stronger for the effort.
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Peterhuff says, “So God, in His goodness chose to save some of us.
You make this sound so abritrary, when it is not abritrary at all. God saves only those people who have worked with the Master Jesus Christ, to make of themselves fit to enter into the Heavenly Kingdom. God can save only those who have agreed to change their ways. I believe that is what the principle of repentance is all about.
To enter into the Kingdom, you must meet the standards of the Kingdom of Heaven. There is only love and perfection there.
For example, if you are foaming at the mouth with hatred for something or somebody, you cannot get into the heavenly kingdom. You must be cleansed of that condition before you can get in. To accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, means to accept that fact that he can help you out of this predicament. You must work with the Master Jesus Christ to jettison such a propensity to hate, and accept His tuturing in the ways of love. As he said, we must learn to love our enemies. This is a character standard for entrance into the Kingdom. If we have hated our enemies in the past, we must recognize that this is wrong, and repent. And then we must work with the Master Jesus Christ to learn how to love. For some people, this takes a very long time. That is why God gives his rebellious children mutliple life opportunities to be weaned away from those kinds of behavior traits which are not allowed in the heavenly domain.
If you consider a person who has been grievously wronged by a particular individual, perhaps tortured, and has developed a extremely intense level of hatred for that individual, even though that individual has been wronged, and has developed the hatred as a result of being wronged, the person still has the responsibility to jettison the hatred before he can enter the Kingdom. And when hatreds are intense, God understands that it might take a very long time for an individual to let go. And that is one reason why we are given multiple life opportunities. Clearly this individual at the end of this life, is not ready for heaven, because of the seething hatred. Therefore, God will give him another life opportunity, and another, and another, to work this out.
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PeterHuff asks, “Do you trust His words, GoldenEagles?”
Yes, Peterhuff, I trust His words. Take John 14:12 for example. I trust these words.
John 14:12 - ”Verily Verily I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do, shall he do also, and greater works than these shall he do, because I go unto my Father.”
I am wondering, what is the point you are trying to make by asking me if I trust his words, when you have made it clear that you do NOT trust these words?
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MrMeaner says, “Those who do, by nature, understand what is, and isn't acceptable...even without a written reference, are counted as righteous in God's eyes.”
Are you saying that there are people within the Hindu tradition, the Buddhist tradition, and the Islamic tradition, who are counted as righteous in the sight of God, because they innately understand what is right, and what is wrong, and they always try to do the right thing?
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Peterhuff says, “So God, in His goodness chose to save some of us. That is what makes grace so amazing - we are receiving something we could never earn by our own merit, something we do NOT deserve. It is beyond our own filthy merit or ability.”
Don’t you believe that you are a Child of God, and thus belong to God’s family, and that God loves you personally, and that this love allows you to feel that you have some worth in God’s sight, and that you are therefore at least somewhat deserving in God’s sight, and that this is the reason that he extends the salvation opportunity to you?
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Peterhuff says, “You can't understand how God can condemn billions upon billions of people to hell. But how could God still be God and compromise His goodness?”
What compromise of God’s Goodness did these five billion people commit to warrant a sentence unto eternal damnation?
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteWell,
ReplyDeleteWe see the dangers of asking to remove content.
As it turns out, there is a "remove content" option that appeared to be applicable to each individual comment, but, in fact, has rendered this thread as you now see it, never to be returned to it's former state.
Anyone who is on the author list (which only requires providing me with an email address to add to the list of allowed contributors) can delete their own comments.
Actually, I would prefer to not have to get involved, unless I see profanity.
(which has happened once, already)
If you don't want to post your address here, send them to my Razorback football address;
hoggiehoggingham@gmail.com
I'll add you guys to the list, and you can police your own content.
With the above administrative business out of the way, I pray we can continue to explore this question as to whether it is really true that the five billion souls referenced above, must face eternal damnation at the close of this life, according to RcoField's interpretation of scripture.
ReplyDeleteI would interpret Rcofield's silence on this issue over the last few days as a sign that he is finally struggling with these important questions.
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GoldenEagles asked, "What compromise of God’s Goodness did these five billion people commit to warrant a sentence unto eternal damnation?"
PeterHuff replied, “They did what He said was evil and called it good. They did not choose to believe Him. They wanted to do their own thing, make their own gods, place themselves as god above God. Those who hear the message refuse to repent and submit to God.”
There are many many many people in the Hindu tradition, in the Buddhist tradition, and in the Islamic tradition, and in others, who faithfully follow a regime of devotion and obedience to the laws of God, not perfectly, but earnestly and sincerely, in terms of loving their neighbor, and dealing with all people justly, as their traditions teach this, in the same manner that Jesus taught this.
Indeed, Jesus Christ himself said, “For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.” (Mt 12:50) Is it possible that this principle would apply to his other sheep? To wit: ”And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”
We could use the Dali Lama as an example, the (exiled) leader of the Tibetan Buddhists, who is always happy, always smiling, and who treats all people with respect. What crime did he commit, and these other billions of Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims commit, to warrant a blanket sentence of eternal damnation at the end of this life?
PeterHuff, please specify the exact crime they have committed, or else admit that they are, in general, innocent of crimes of a magnitude that would warrant eternal damnation, and that the law of forgiveness, would apply to them.
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